Update to my prior post: According to the account, in regards to the last chief who approached Elijah, his king was killed by Jehovah (though not by means of fire being sent down from heaven), or perhaps Jehovah merely chose not to heal the king from his great fall through the grating of his roof chamber - 2 Kings 1:16-17 and 1:2-8.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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Disillusioned JW
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Disillusioned JW
Thanks TD, those are excellent points and clarifications you made. You are right about me being "familiar with the sexual escapades of Oholah and Oholibah (Samaria and Israel respectively) in Ezekiel". I vaguely had those examples mind, as well as having others in mind, when I wrote the following. "... I know that the Bible (in words attributed to Yahweh) sometimes figuratively described worship of other gods as acts of fornication (in a spiritual sense) and I think some prophetic books of the OT Bible sometimes referred to the nations of Israel and/or other nations as prostitutes".
I moment ago I opened up the 1963 large print edition (Student's Edition) of NWT at random and read a passage therein at random. It was the one about a mother and a prostitute who had each given birth to a son, and in which the prostitute's son died. The two women claimed the same living son as theirs, etc. I'm sure you remember that story. That story is appalling in regards to the prostitute saying to cut the baby boy in half, but it was very loving that the mother of the son said to keep the boy alive, saying to give it to the other woman instead of killing the boy. Whether the story is a real story or not, it is true in the sense of accurately reflecting the cultural views and values (and human nature) of the ancient Jews. What it depicts of many of the Jews is appalling.
I then randomly flipped to another page in the Bible and I read a portion of a story of chiefs accompanied by 50 men taking turns approaching Elijah and appealing to him. In response Elijah called down fire from Jehovah upon those men, and the fire came down and killed them, except for the last group that approached Elijah. The passage said the deaths were due the men being sent "to inquire of Ba'al-ze'bub the god of Ek'ron" (see 2 Kings chapter one). That story of brutally by God (and by a request to God by a prophet of God) is appalling to me.
The OT portion of the Bible has so many abhorrent passages of people (Jew and non-Jew) deliberately causing harm, even death, to other humans - as well as Jehovah doing such to Jew and non-Jew. The idea of people being killed for worshiping a god other than Jehovah, or engaging in some other kind of religion (one deemed false by some worshipers of Jehovah), is something totally against the values that are stated in the first amendment of the USA Constitution.
The framers of that amendment learned from the history of Europeans having numerous wars with each other about each other's religions. They also learned from the history of wars between Christians and Muslims over the matter of religion. Furthermore, they also learned from the history of persecutions of various sects withing individual nations, and even within some of the British colonies in America. The framers of the 1st Amendment to the USA Constitution were much more enlightened than the ancient writers of the OT Bible and than many of the other peoples who were living in ancient biblical times.
The framers of the amendment guaranteed freedom of religion (even of deism), with those rights being extended to all branches and sects of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and to all other religions. As result in our day people can worship any god (or goddess, or spirit, or human) they imagine (provided their practice doesn't harm other people). They can worship Baal if they want, or Zeus, or Ishtar, or even Satan if they want. In modern times the amendment is also interpreted to mean that people have the freedom to have no religion and to not worship at all. The vast majority of people in our time in the USA do not kill or violently attack each other over the practice (or non-practice) of religion - and the people of the USA are not being attacked by Jehovah God. We (not just people in the USA and most other countries, but even in Islamic nations) are so much more tolerant, so much more liberal, of people's religious practices, than the Bible portrays the ancient Israelites and Jews (and Jehovah) as being.
The USA (and many other countries with similar laws guaranteeing freedom of religion) are thriving. Many of the values of the OT Bible are outdated and now recognized by many as being wrong. Human society today is so much more liberal/tolerant and hence so much more civil (and so much less barbaric, though the weapons of today are far more dangerous) and so much better, than that which existed in biblical times.
There will be no battle of Armageddon in the biblical sense - no mass slaughter of people by Jehovah God or Jesus Christ or other alleged heavenly spirit beings. The WT and JWs are wrong in teaching there will be a battle of Armageddon and a destruction by God and Christ (and by JWs who claim to be the anointed of Jehovah to rule with Christ in heaven) of the human governments of the USA and of all other human governments, and of people who practice what the WT calls false religion. Much of what the Bible teaches as good and right is actually very bad.
I need to somehow kick the habit of reading religious literature (both WT literature and other religious literature). I wish I hadn't been raised as a JW or even as a Christian in general, except for being taught most of the basic teachings on morals and ethics.
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Disillusioned JW
I found online a brief article by a non-JW Christian with degrees in religion, biblical studies, and theology who has written a book which reviews the 2013 NWT and the web page gives a link to his book. [The article promotes his book and his book is called REVIEWING 2013 New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses: Examining the History of the Watchtower Translation and the Latest Revision. He says he is the "Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version".] For a non-JW author of numerous Christian books and articles he says surprisingly good things about the 2013 NWT and of the JW religion, but he also says two things about the NWT which weaken my temptation to obtain a copy of the 2013 NWT. The following are some of the things he says at https://christianpublishinghouse.co/2016/11/08/review-of-2013-revision-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses-new-world-translation/ (the boldface is mine).
"The 2013 New World Translation (NWT) is nothing like the 1984 New World Translation Reference Bible. Yes, the same theological bias exists. However, setting aside the theologically biased verses (e.g., according to Orthodoxy John 1:1, 8:58, Acts 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13 to mention just a few), 2013 is a more accurate translation by far in comparison to the 1984 edition. However, 2013 is a dynamic equivalent (interpretative) translation like the New Revised Standard Version or the New International Version, even on the levels of the Today’s English Version at times, while the 1984 NWT reference Bible was more literal by far and written on an 11th-12th-grade level. The 2013 NWT is written on a 6th-7th-grade level.
The 2013 year of the Jehovah’s Witnesses was the biggest since 1914. While they made many doctrinal adjustments in 2013, it is their 2013 revision of their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures that was most shocking, to both Witnesses and non-Witnesses alike.
... This review is unbiased, frank, and very honest. Most Christians see the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a cult, which they are not. David Koresh, Charles Manson, Jim Jones and Jonestown, these were cults. Anything one can blame the Jehovah’s Witnesses for, so-called orthodox Christians have done as well, even more so in many cases, be it setting false dates, theological bias in translation, costing Christians their lives because of false beliefs, believing that they are the one true religion, mind control, and being biblically wrong. ... In my studies of their history, their translations, I can say, if you set aside the handful of theologically biased verses, the 2013 NWT is not much different than the NIV. Moreover, their study notes (original language terms, Bible background, historical setting, archaeology, textual issues), are actually very good."
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Disillusioned JW
In searching online pictures of the 2013 NWT it looks like the they all have silver colored covers (though third party colored covers are available for them). Regarding its size, perhaps the size of its print is that of the 1984 NWT With References (a somewhat large print edition) instead of the size of the 1984 NWT regular size editions. As a result the thickness of the 2013 NWT might be the same as the 1984 NWT With Reference edition. An online search mentioned there is a compact edition of the 2013 NWT; perhaps it has smaller margins and a print size which is the same as the 1984 NWT regular size editions.
Even though I am now tempted to obtain a copy of the 2013 NWT I really need to continue to avoid obtaining any more WT literature and other religious literature. I also really need to stop studying religion and to stop thinking about religion, but all of those things are very hard for me do. Those things are especially hard for me to do since I am very strongly motivated to find ways to persuade people to stop believing in Christianity, religion, God, gods, spirits, and in all types of supernaturalism. In order to be effective in persuading Christian people (especially by writing a pro-atheism book) I have to study Christian literature - looking for evidence of false teachings, contradictions, and failed prophecies in them.
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Disillusioned JW
Hi TD, thanks for your replies to me. Yes I do know that the Jews (including Bible writers) had a very negative view of idols (graven images), but I don't recall of the Bible calling such images whores. The images weren't thought of as having sex with anyone (except maybe some who used/worshipped idols thought that in rare cases the idols turned themselves into living fleshly goddesses and had sex with a human worshipers of them), though some of the presumed living goddesses (represented by the images) were thought of as having sex with humans. Maybe some Jews referred to some of the images of goddesses as whores for that reason. Likewise, I know that the Bible (in words attributed to Yahweh) sometimes figuratively described worship of other gods as acts of fornication (in a spiritual sense) and I think some prophetic books of the OT Bible sometimes referred to the nations of Israel and/or other nations as prostitutes. But I don't recall the OT referring to a pagan goddess as a prostitute. But in most respects I don't think like an ancient Jew and that might explain why I am puzzled that Rome and Dema Roma were thought of as being whores by ancient Jews.
At least according to what I have read, Athena and Minerva in Greko-Roman myths were not considered as whores by the Greeks and Romans. It looks to me that the image of the Roman coin showing a goddess with a scepter appears to have a small garment (perhaps a bikini style top) covering both of her breasts and something covering the upper parts of her legs (though perhaps not her pelvis/pubic region). [Update: maybe in the image on the coin her right breast is uncovered, but it was not an idea I had prior to reading your reply to me, except that the engraving is not of high enough resolution/clarity for me know some of the details I am seeing.] Furthermore, to me it does not convey the idea of her being a prostitute, since I am aware of the ancient Greek idea of fierce warrior Amazon women with one breast uncovered while fighting men.] Furthermore, you say the coin uses the motif of justice (and thus not that of prostitution) in its depiction of Dea Roma.
But even if she were depicted as totally naked, that wouldn't mean the coin was depicting her as a prostitute, since even the Greek and Roman statues of male gods are often depicted as totally naked and yet those gods were not considered by Greeks and Romans as gigolos/prostitutes (though some of those male gods were considered adulterers).
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Disillusioned JW
I noticed that the silver (or gray) covered 2013 revised edition of the NWT looks considerably thicker and longer than the regular size (including leather covered) editions of the 1984 NWT. Why is that since the 2013 edition doesn't have nearly as many footnotes as the 1963 compilation Large Print (Student's Edition) nor the 1984 With References Edition (which included extensive footnotes of alternate readings and renderings). Is the 2013 edition using thicker paper than the earlier editions of the NWT? The prior editions (other than the ones printed prior to the 1951 revision of the 1950 'NT') used Bible paper (India paper?) instead of the type paper used in most books.
Does the 2013 revised edition of the NWT come in any colors (of the cover) besides the silver/gray color?
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Disillusioned JW
Today I read the https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20151215/nwt-bible-2013/ web page called "The 2013 Revision of the New World Translation" and I am very impressed with what it says! The types of changes mentioned are ones which the NIV and NSRV Bibles (and some other modern translations of the Bible) already include, such as having "Proverbs, Song of Solomon, and many chapters of the prophetic book" in prophetic format. Also consider the following (from the above mentioned web page) which says how a translation of a portion of the text of the Dead Sea scrolls (which agreed with the Greek Septuagint) was incorporated in the new edition of the NWT.
'For example, at 2 Samuel 13:21, the Greek Septuagint contains the equivalent of the words: “But he would not hurt the feelings of Amnon his son, because he loved him, for he was his firstborn.” Earlier versions of the New World Translation did not include these words because they are not in the Masoretic text. However, the Dead Sea Scrolls do contain these words, which are now included in the 2013 revision.'
For more than 10 years I have refused to obtain any WT book that is copyright after the year 2006 (since I stopped considering myself a JW in the year 2007), but now as a result of reading the above web page I have decided to obtain a copy of the 2013 Edition of the NWT. I am also reading more of the online Study Edition of the NWT. I like the reading style and new features (such as summaries and footnotes) of the 2013 and Study editions of the NWT.
I am no longer concerned about the 2013 NWT's exclusion of the exclusion of John 8:1-11 and other textually weakly supported passages of the Bible. After all, I can still read them in my copies of the pre-2013 editions of the NWT, and furthermore I rarely those passages anyway.
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JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them
by Anony Mous inso a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.
if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.
now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.
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Disillusioned JW
Thanks Anony Mous. What are some of the books you have in mind which "... explore the archeological evidence of the Judaic traditions that eventually become Christianity ..."? Do they include the books by Earl Doherty about his version of the Christ myth theory in which Jesus did not exist as a historical person? Do the books you have in mind also include a book published by American Atheist Press called Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth: An Evaluation of Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist?? Do you believe that pre-first century CE Greek speaking Christians (at least some of them) were calling themselves Chrestians instead of Christians and that the term "Christian" (instead of "Chrestian) was not used in NT manuscripts till after 300 CE?
The idea that Christianity had existed in some form by ~100BC makes it easier to understand how it could be well established by ~50 CE. In contrast, the idea that it came into existence at ~ 30 CE in Galilee and/or Judea makes it hard to understand how it could be well established by ~50 CE in Rome.
Your idea that the "... oldest known Pauline letters ... date back to ~30CE ..." is an idea I had never read before. That is because numerous theology books I have (not merely WT ones but high quality influential ones written by people of 'Christendom' [Catholics and Protestants] with degrees in biblical theology) say the first canonical NT letter of Paul was written in about the the year 51 AD (CE). Perhaps began teaching Christianity in ~30 CE but didn't write his first letter to a Christian congregation till ~50 CE, or perhaps no copies of his earliest Christian letters managed to get into the canonical New Testament Bible.
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Disillusioned JW
Hi pistolepete, I watched the Fox news video but I didn't see an answer to my question in it. However, I heard the person interviewed in say that: (1) the USA has 200 National Guard USA troops in the Ukraine; (2) the USA never never said they would never use nuclear weapons, since they needs to keep all options on the table (including using nuclear weapons) while negotiating with other countries; (3) that the USA should keep all options on the table why negoiating with Russia about the Ukraine. Thus, the one interviewed is saying that the USA should keep the option of going to war with Russia and he pointed out the USA already has troops in the Ukraine, but he didn't say that the USA would go to war with Russia. The USA might have the 200 troops in the Ukraine as a deterrent to Russia invading what is left of Ukraine.
Yesterday I read news saying that Russia has announced they are withdrawing some of their troops from the border with the Ukraine. Maybe the efforts of the USA are thus succeeding in preventing an invasion by Russia and and are succeeding in preventing a war.
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JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them
by Anony Mous inso a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.
if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.
now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: I made an error when I said 'Sea Breeze, I notice you use the term "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" instead of the term "Testimony of the Twelve Patriarchs" ...'. I meant to say 'Sea Breeze, I notice you use the term "Testimony of the Twelve Patriarchs" instead of the term "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" ...'.
Further information: The vast majority of scholars writing about the Christian era copies of the "Testimony of the Twelve Patriarchs" say that the very Christian sounding sections of that book (sections that sound nearly identical to NT wording and which also don't appear in the OT Bible) are additions by Christians to what originally was written only by non-Christian Jews.